Ron Drummond ([info]ron_drummond) wrote,
@ 2008-10-09 22:49:00
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Denying the Right to Deny a Right
Both supporters and opponents of gay marriage might want to refamiliarize themselves with the Ninth Amendment:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

The Bill of Rights did not grant us any rights, rather, it recognized and enumerated some (but not all) of the rights we already have by virtue of being human beings. Far from granting any rights, the Bill of Rights affirms that the government cannot take the People's rights away. The Ninth Amendment's purpose is to acknowledge that there are other rights which are not mentioned in the Bill of Rights, and to affirm that the people still have those rights, even though they aren't mentioned in the Bill of Rights.

Given this, it seems clear to me that one crucial measure of whether a right is protected by the Ninth Amendment is this: would such a right infringe on the rights of others? If it inherently constitutes, or is likely in and of itself to cause, an infringement of the rights of others, I think it's safe to say that it would not and should not be recognized as a right.

If you are married, then your marriage is between you and your partner and your god (if any). Period! Its your mutual responsibility. Anyone who claims that another couple's marriage somehow infringes on their own marriage is a coward as far as I'm concerned -- how dare you blame your own marital problems on the fact that a gay couple somewhere got married because they love one another? The "integrity of marriage" is only as good as the marriage you and your partner are a party to.

To deny other adult human beings the right to marry one another because they share gender is to infringe on their rights, which means the so-called "right" of an individual or government to enforce such a denial fails the test stated above and thus should not be recognized under the Ninth Amendment -- and is therefore no right at all.

To repeat: denying the rights of gays to marry is itself not a right under the Constitution, and thus all anti-gay marriage laws should be struck down by definition.



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[info]calimac
2008-10-10 04:04 am UTC (link)
Your reading of the Constitution is correct, though it is not popular, especially among "Constitutional literalist" conservative judges, because reading this Amendment literally would permit all kinds of things they want to forbid.

The best take on Prop 8 is from this guy, who says: "Those of us opposing Prop 8 are not asking you to sanctify, bless or even approve of same-sex marriages. Instead, we are asking you to allow these couples to live in privacy and peace, with the same legal, financial, health care, and other rights to support each other as heterosexual couples do."

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[info]ron_drummond
2008-10-10 05:19 am UTC (link)
Thank you for that, and for the link -- that's a great quote. Have you encountered anyone else pointing out that the "right" to deny a right is what will not stand up under the 9th Amendment? Or arguing that that the burden of proof is or should be, must be, on those who would deny, rather than on those who would affirm, a right?

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Rights, use them or lose them
[info]farmgirl1146
2008-10-10 05:07 am UTC (link)
I would like to extend the legal sanctions of marriage to anyone who wants them. As a long-time (24 year) married person, I do not want anyone else has to intrude on my marriage. My marriage is enough for me to deal with and I do not want to intrude in other people's marriages.

I actually don't have a problem with polyamoury as long as anyone can marry more than one person and everybody in all the various marriages knows about them and signs off.

I simply do not understand why the same crew that does not want restrictions put on the financial markets, the lack of which is causing the greatest financial crisis in decades (Bush is getting better at this, he was pres during the financial meltdown earlier in the decade, too,) want to stick their noses and laws into people's lives and restrict those.

I had not thought about the rights in the way that you discussed for a very long time, and seeing them laid out as you did here, Ron, is wonderful.

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Re: Rights, use them or lose them
[info]ron_drummond
2008-10-10 05:20 am UTC (link)
Thank you!

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[info]ron_drummond
2008-10-10 05:26 am UTC (link)
Folks who like my post can go to TalkingPointsMemo.com, where I cross-posted it, and click on the recommend button; if enough peope do that, it will be added to TPM's "Recommended Posts" listing.

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[info]fringefaan
2008-10-10 03:32 pm UTC (link)
Done.

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[info]farmgirl1146
2008-10-10 06:51 am UTC (link)
After we spoke, I wrote about this post on my LJ, and then some. If you want to read it, please go to The forgotten Ninth Amendment. As I said before, thank you for reminding me of perhaps the most important of all the Amendments. I never thought of it that way before, so this is something of an epiphany. Cheers.

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[info]fringefaan
2008-10-10 06:37 pm UTC (link)
Also: Yay, Connecticut!

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[info]crowleycrow
2008-10-10 08:55 pm UTC (link)
The government must guarantee all the rights and privileges granted to those who enter into any kind of contract. That's law. It has (as you say) little to do with our "unalienable" rights that cannot be denied under the constitution. (All those Bill of Rights rights are cast in terms of rights not to be infringed upon.) The government should not be in the marriage business at all; everyone should have a civil union only. If you want to make further promises you are free to; if the group that performs your wedding refuses to marry men to men or a man to two women, they are free to do so. Just so the civil union is the same for everybody.

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[info]mmegaera
2008-10-15 12:19 am UTC (link)
I'm here via [info]jaylake, and I must just say, hear, hear.

I've always thought making marriage a legal construct a violation of separation of church and state, anyway.

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[info]farmgirl1146
2008-10-14 08:25 pm UTC (link)
[info]jaylake picked this up today and you can verify this at Jay's link to this article. He has lots of readers both on LJ and on his blog.

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[info]ericjamesstone
2008-10-15 05:49 am UTC (link)
It seems that your interpretation of the 9th Amendment would strike down anti-polygamy laws. A polygamous marriage does not interfere with the rights of others, but it's clear that anti-polygamy laws interfered with the right of religious freedom of the Mormons in the 1800s. By your analysis, denying the rights of polygamists to marry is itself not a right under the Constitution, and thus all anti-polygamy marriage laws should be struck down by definition.

Would you agree? If not, why not?

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[info]ron_drummond
2008-10-15 06:12 am UTC (link)
As long as it is between consenting adults; the implications of the 9th amendment seem clear.

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